Watch the full interview here: https://youtu.be/UoE_Nzpp7Uc
Listen to this interview on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-nurse-helped-preform-an-abortion-before-roe-now/id1862553280?i=1000741873565
Listen to this interview on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2mYWz0jWYNlGKZNMqNwrft
Cassidy: "I'm so excited to sit down with you today, Leta. How did we get connected?"
Leta: "Well, you are my great niece. And so I have known you since you were little. Not close, but I've known you since you were little."
Cassidy: "Yes, and I think you have an amazing pro-life story. You're someone who has had a lot of experience in the medical field, and in caring for people facing different kinds of needs they're facing in their bodies. So I'm excited to hear from you today. Will you tell me a little bit about your professional background as a nurse?"
Leta: "Sure, I graduated from Northwestern Michigan College in Traverse City, and I had done all my college requirements at Munson, and I really loved the hospital. And so I was married three weeks after I graduated, and we stayed in Traverse City. And so I started working at Munson, and then we were there from September until May when we moved to St. Louis, Missouri. And I worked at a Missouri Pacific rural employees' hospital for a year — for eleven months while we were down there, and that hospital is no longer there."
Cassidy: "What kind of unit were you working in, in Missouri?"
Leta: "In Missouri, I worked on the main floor, and then I ended up in the cardiac unit. At Munson, I was on the Med-Surg unit. So then we, my husband Emerson, was going to school for Diesel Mechanics, and he graduated then we came back to Traverse City, and I went back to work at Munson. And so it was during that time period that we came back to — we were in Missouri from '69 to '70, and then in 1970 when we came back, Roe v. Wade was not — had not yet passed at this point. But it was probably in 1971 — it was probably the end of '70 or 1971 — when I learned that we had doctors in our hospital that — gynecologists; OBGYN docs were actually doing some abortions in the hospital."
Cassidy: "And where was this hospital?"
Leta: "At Munson. And learning that the people that were having the — the women that were having the abortions, some of them young girls, they were determined to have psychiatric problems. And so back then if you had two psychiatrists who stated that the girl's life was in danger or the lady's life was in danger because of her pregnancy, and with an agreement with the OBGYN then they could do an abortion because it was for the health of the mother."
Cassidy: "So tell me about the medical necessity that these doctors determined for these women. Do you think it was accurate that they were going to die if they didn't have the abortion?"
Leta: "The issue was that they didn't put a whole lot on the charts, and so we really didn't know the history behind the situation — we did not know."
Cassidy: "Did it seem like they had very high blood pressure or were going to go into cardiac arrest if they didn't have the abortion?"
Leta: "No. The one [abortion] that I helped with was a woman that was in her thirties. This was her third or fourth abortion. And she was pretty much open, kind of, in letting us know that she did this [abortion] for birth control, kind of. And yet, when we would go look in the records, the doctors didn't put in the records. We don't know. At that point, they really didn't put a lot in the records and we didn't know. One young gal that I did not help take care of her but I happened to be on the floor when she was, she was fifteen years old. And that little girl was sick. She was — I think she was mentally ill. Back then, we did saline, it was all saline abortions."
Cassidy: "And will you explain to me, just because they have gone out of favor now — the saline abortions — they're not practiced as often now. If you were to explain to someone, let's say you had a new nurse on your floor and you needed to educate her from the top. What would you tell someone a saline abortion is? How would you describe that?"
Leta: "Well, what we did, and when I helped the doctor do this, this one — we went in and with syringes he [the doctor] withdrew with a needle in her uterus, he withdrew the amniotic fluid, and pushed saline into the uterus. Then she was left...left to go. That was it."
Cassidy: "So, like left in her room in the hospital until labor progressed?"
Leta: "Yeah."
Cassidy: "So what was the impact on the fetal patient? Because you're taking out the amniotic fluid inside the womb, and sometimes you know, like in labor, you take out the amniotic fluid and it's fine. You just progress to delivery and that's alright. It's this saliene part that makes it so sacry, right?"
Leta: "It's the saline part burns the child. The skin and the baby is burned. The child is burned — not necessarily totally all over, but with this particular one, and this — I will say — this is the only baby I saw after an abortion. This is the only one I ever helped with. And when I came back to work the next morning, the little boy was in a bucket — in a stainless steel bucket in the utility room because the lab wasn't open yet, waiting for the lab to get this child. And he was burned. Parts of his body was black from burning. But they die because they no longer have the amniotic fluid, and they have a foreign fluid, and then the saline burns them. And the mother went into labor — she wasn't in labor by the time I left work that day, she wasn't in labor. And she went into labor sometime late evening, and the baby was born during the night."
Cassidy: "What was the gestational age of that baby?"
Leta: "Well, they said that it was like three months [12 weeks] or so, and I was stupid back then — I was ill-informed. And then looking back and in my memory and seeing what I see in that, I think that child was probably five months [20 weeks] or maybe six [24 weeks]. Cause he was a little round, roly-poly baby that fit in the bottom of the bucket. Fully formed. And I just remember thinking, 'What did I do?' And I wanted to impress the doctor. The doctor who did it was my OBGYN — I loved the man. He was the best OBGYN doc that I have ever known — even to this day. His compassion – caring for me as a patient and that kind of thing, and I hadn't had any children by that time. I just was a young girl had gotten married and went to him [for primary care] because he was recommended. But when I saw that baby I realized what I had done, but it took me a couple years. It took me a couple years to realize that God had forgiven me for doing that. And then, the couple of others I had observed in the hospital — this one young girl I began with, she was very sad. Her parents were very protective of her. They didn't want anybody but a specific nurse in the room. After she had had her delivery on clinic, the next day I worked on Anex — another floor — and they brought her down there and put her in a private room, and that child howled like an animal. That's the sound that would come out of her voice."
Cassidy: "So she had an abortion?"
Leta: "She had an, yep, abortion. She had a saline abortion. And again, there was nothing on the charts. So we didn't know the circumstances — what they had done with the charts."
Cassidy: "About how old do you think this girl was?"
Leta: "Fifteen."
Cassidy: "Fifteen? Wow. And she's howling with grief."
Leta: "She was howling. She sounded like a wolf. A coyote. You know, that kind of — it was sad. And it was loud. And so people, this floor, it was old part of the hospital and the rooms had no bathrooms in them, and you'd go down the hall to the bathrooms. And she was in — and mostly the rooms were private. And she was just in this one room off the nurse's station. It was sad."
Cassidy: "It's so devastating."
Leta: "Yeah. And whether she had a mental health issue before that — the way she sounded, the way — it did not sound human. It just sounded animalistic. And then she was only there one day till her parents took her home. So I have no idea — I've often wondered what happened to her."
Cassidy: "Do you think it's possible in the situation of her abortion that any coercion may have played a role?"
Leta: "Oh, I'm sure."
Cassidy: "Do you think it was forced on her by her parents?"
Leta: "I have no idea, but some of us felt that way — we had no idea because we really didn't know her background because the charts say nothing. This lady that I helped with, her chart said very little. It did say she had x number of abortions. And I can't remember if this was her third one or her fourth one. And it was her — from things that she said, that made me believe that she was doing it for birth control more than for mental health issues. But there was very little for us to go by."
Cassidy: "That makes sense."
Leta: "And us nurses talked about that. We talked about that 'This chart doesn't say anything!' You know. Here we are, we're helping take care of this, and when the doctor came on the floor he said, 'Which one of you ladies wants to help me? I need some help.' So I just volunteered to do it."
Cassidy: "Did you know what you were getting into? Could it have been something else in your mind? Like helping with labor?"
Leta: "Oh no, I knew that he was working with an abortion. And part of it was curiosity — 'So what happens?' You know. And I will say that I was young — probably twenty-one, twenty-two maybe.
Cassidy: "Yeah, and at that time — you said it's before Roe v. Wade — would you describe yourself as pro-choice or pro-life?"
Leta: "Yeah, I would, for the most part."
Cassidy: "You would describe yourself as..."
Leta: "As pro-life. But there was a time where, in my head, because I would listen to the comments of other people, and the women who were coming out about [inaudible] — and so you'd wonder. And at one time I would wonder what I would do if I found myself into a predicament where I found myself pregnant and not married. I had thought about that one time in my life. And yet in my head it was wrong."
Cassidy: "What was it about abortion — you knew about the idea of abortion, but then also you eventually saw this abortion. You saw the baby — the product of this abortion — how did you know in the end that even if it was a difficult situation, like maybe the mom did have some mental health struggles, maybe there was something going on in her life where she wasn't married. Did you come to the end of that still thinking it would be ok to have an abortion? Or did it change you to see it?"
Leta: "No, I knew it was wrong. God made that child. And I knew it was wrong to kill those babies."
Cassidy: "What do you think it was about that experience of participating in that abortion that made you realize it was wrong? Because there are people, even like down the street from where I live in the Grand Rapids area — there's this place, Heritage Clinic for Women. It was open for years and years and years — all these abortions performed, and there's this abortionist named Thomas James Gordon, who has now passed away. And he has performed so many abortions. He saw so many deceased babies, and his heart was not changed. So there are some people that will help with an abortion and they will see the body of the baby and their hearts aren't changed. So what do you think it was about your experience that made your heart change?"
Leta: "My upbringing. I was raised in a Christian home. I knew that life was created by God. I knew that the Bible says that God knew us before we were ever created in our mother's wombs. I knew they were babies. I knew they were live babies. I just was stupid and wanted to please the doctor, and was curious on, 'How do you do this? What goes on?'"
Cassidy: "You mentioned that after you participated in this abortion that you said there was guilt."
Leta: "Um-hum, there was guilt."
Cassidy: "And was it when you first were helping the doctor put the infusion in the woman? Or was it once you saw the baby's body?"
Leta: "It's when I saw the baby's—it's when I saw the child, the little guy in the bucket."
Cassidy: "And what was the process of healing from that abortion, because one thing that I have learned by being involved with the pro-life movement is that sometimes what actually keeps people participating in abortion or even in having more abortions personally is a lack of healing. So obviously God brought you on this journey, and you started to heal from having participated in the abortion, so what was that like for you?"
Leta: "Well, mine was a lot of prayer, and a lot of asking God to forgive me. And I knew that he forgave me right from the beginning, but I didn't feel that forgiveness. It was probably because I didn't forgive myself for a couple years that it was very hard to forgive myself. And I didn't dwell on it, it just, every so often, it would be something that would come back into my heart, and thinking, 'Oh, what did I do?' But it took me a couple years. And it might have been after our daughter was born that I felt that full forgiveness. And I was able to forgive myself."
Cassidy: "What do you think it was about that experience of having your daughter? Was it like holding another infant? Or what do you think about it God used to—"
Leta: "No, I don't know. I can't tell you that except that I knew she was a precious thing. And it might have been before she was born that I came to—I know that we lived in Kalkaska at the time. We had moved from Traverse [City] to Kalkaska. So I wasn't working at Munson anymore at the time. And I was pregnant with her when we did that. My memory — it's hard to go back that far to think of all the details of the situation."
Cassidy: "So, sometimes I've chatted with you, and you know that I'm doing pro-life work, and something I've noticed about you, Leta, is that you're really open about sharing the story of having participated in this abortion. I've learned from interacting with other people who've had abortion experiences — I can think of one woman I know who is probably in her sixties or seventies now, and she told me in confidence that she had an abortion, and she begged me not to tell anyone else. Which I understand because it can feel so heartbreaking and scary to be a part of that, even once you've recognized that it's wrong — that it destroys a human life — but seeing that individual and talking to you is quite the contrast. Because one person says, 'I participated in an abortion, and I am so afraid of being judged or of people not being open to hearing what I went through.' So why were you so willing to share your story about participating in the abortion?"
Leta: "I didn't tell anybody for a long time. And I don't remember when the first time I told somebody. But we had moved back here to Fairview, had lived here for quite a long time before I had shared that. And I don't remember the circumstances, but once I shared it once, then it was easier to share again. Once my secret was out, I guess."
Cassidy: "What was that first occasion of sharing it? Why do you think you felt led to do that?"
Leta: "I don't remember. I think I was with a group of women. I'm not sure I ever specifically told my parents or my siblings. But my siblings, I think, know it now. But I think it was a group of women and we were together. You know, it might have been Bible study."
Cassidy: "Something that gave you a safe place, it sounds like, to share that."
Leta: "Yeah.
Cassidy: "And what was it like when you shared that? Were you met with anger or forgiveness? What was the response of the people?"
Leta: "A lot of it was that they thought I was brave for telling it."
Cassidy: "Well, you are."
Leta: "I didn't feel any condemnation through that situation. None at all. It was just that — it was an experience that I shared, and they accepted for what I said."
Cassidy: "It takes a lot of courage to share about participation in abortion."
Leta: "I still didn't realize all the things that were happening with modern day abortions. My sister was involved with a pregnancy center in Colorado. And one day she—I don't know if I was talking to her or if she sent me an email, that told me about some of the things that were happening, like with the D&E and that kind of thing — I just hadn't kept up with that. And she was telling me that. So then I started researching the different types of abortions that they do. The saline abortions, they seemed to be almost the most humane — possibly the human one because the baby wasn't pulled apart — the baby was born whole. And now with these others, they pull them apart."
Cassidy: "The dismemberment abortions are very graphic — it's true. Really, any way a child is destroyed — it's such devastation [...] I think of a woman named Melissa Ohden, who experienced the saline infusion abortion while she was in her mom's womb. Kind of a crazy story — I think you've heard her story before. Have you heard her story?"
Leta: "Yeah, I don't know if it was her but I've heard some."
Cassidy: "Well, the interesting thing is she was born in a Catholic hospital and a lot of these hospitals of faith, you'd assume they wouldn't kill a child, but they do sometimes. And she was born alive after the saline abortion. Obviously, it was very traumatic to her body. Did you ever hear of any stories of babies born alive after the saline infusion?"
Leta: "I have of babies born alive, but I don't remember specific stories."
Cassidy: "But you'd heard of it on your unit?"
Leta: "No. I've never known that. I don't think that ever happened. And the frequency of them [saline abortions at Munson], I don't think was high. I don't know if they do them today."
Cassidy: "I've heard that they've mostly phased them [saline abortions] out. So, this is an interesting time in history, it's 1971 when this abortion occurs [that Leta participates in]. So, Michigan law supposedly, at the time, bans all abortion except for the case of the life of the mother. And the way that was supposed to be defined was actual medical necessity — as separating mom and baby — which you probably know well from working in the medical field, we can separate mom and baby through emergency C-sections without dismembering or killing the baby. So it's never medically necessary to kill a child. And really, all obstetricians know that, right? They're in the hospital every day, looking at the mom who's not doing ok, and baby's not doing ok, and they separate them through a C-section. It happens every day on these obstetric units. And yet the pro-choice establishment is trying to tell women they need to be so scared of their capacity to have a child because it's going to be them versus the baby. But it's not ever them versus the baby. The doctor takes good care of both."
Leta: "Right, and so if a mother's life is in danger, then you take the baby and you care for the baby."
Cassidy: "Um-hum, you give them a fighting chance at life. Even when it is tragically those preterm ones — you know there are sometimes where, sadly, they do everything they can to save them and the baby still comes too early. But that's still so different than abortion because if a baby is delivered preterm and they get to come lie on the chest of their mother until they pass naturally, that's a world of difference from an abortion where they're intentionally dismembered or their body is poisoned or they're burned to death with the saline. So I'm so glad that there is medical innovation to help separate moms and babies when that's necessary."
Leta: "And I get really upset when, when I would hear them say on the news, 'For the life of the mother,' people would say abortion is ok because of the life of the mother. But it never has to be that way."
Cassidy: "True. And one thing I didn't know until I started doing some research is that I guess for obstetricians, once they make the incision in a woman's stomach for a C-section, it can take about two minutes to pull that baby out [during an emergency C-section]. Two minutes! That's pretty quick. I don't know of any abortions that take two minutes. You know, they all take a while to destroy human life. So if there is a serious emergency, and mom is dying,"
Leta: "Then you can get the baby out."
Cassidy: "Yes. They can get the baby out and give them a chance. The baby may not make it because our technology is only so good, right, we can save babies now at some hospitals I've even heard of in Alabama now are saving babies that are twenty-one weeks gestation. Which is amazing. They don't always survive at that early of a state, but even if they don't, the point is that they were worth the attempt to save them."
Leta: "And it makes my heart happy when mothers refuse to have an abortion when doctors say, 'You need it.' We have a young mother here in our area who goes to our church that was diagnosed with a brain tumor. I don't know how far along. They were trying to encourage her to have an abortion. They told her that she would not live. Well, that little girl is going on three."
Cassidy: "Wow. And is mom still alive?"
Leta: [nods yes].
Cassidy: "What happened to [the] mom's cancer after that?"
Leta: "It's still there. She's done a lot of holistic treatment, between medical and holistic. Today she's working with a doctor in California. One doctor in California and somebody somewhere else that is working with her with treatments. She's very thin, but she is doing well. And her story is amazing."
Cassidy: "That's amazing. Thank God for saving that child's life and for giving the mom the wisdom to protect her baby."
Leta: "She's a nurse."
Cassidy: "She was very medically informed, wasn't she?"
Leta: "Yes. So it makes me happy when women no to the abortions."
Cassidy: "So, looking back at history, 1971 is when this abortion takes place that you were a part of — 1973 was pretty close by — just a couple years. What did you think when Roe v. Wade was decided?"
Leta: "It made me unhappy. I was not happy about this decision. It did not surprise me because of the pressure the feminist movement was having on our leaders and what not."
Cassidy: "What did you see that pressure as, because you're explaining a social and cultural change that was happening. What did you see that was different? You could probably recall years before where it may have been less feminist and less of that push towards the sexual revolution. What do you think helped prime the culture to accept Roe v. Wade?"
Leta: "I don't know. I know that I started listening to a lot of Phyllis Schlafly and what she stood for and what she was fighting for and that's how I got into a lot of the knowledge that I had at that time. But just like now the loudest voices seem to take over and make the decisions. I think we as the church failed because we didn't stand up, we did not stand up for what we knew was truth. And we didn't fight back. There were a few, but we as a broader church did not just like we do not today with issues that happen today. So I really don't have an answer.
Cassidy: "I think that's definitely, like what you gave was an answer. It's true, the church was not really participating — wasn't being very vocal for the most part. There were a few exceptions like you said — a few people were speaking up, but mostly not. When you went to church on Sunday morning, did you ever hear anything about abortion?"
Leta: "No."
Cassidy: "Ever?"
Leta: "No."
Cassidy: "Do you think that was helpful to women in your congregation who might have been facing unplanned pregnancies?"
Leta: "No, you probably didn't even know it when somebody was pregnant. But I do know that back then there were young girls that I learned later that had had abortions. Some relatives in particular, but I didn't know it at the time, until afterwards. In fact, several years afterwards."
Cassidy: "I read some research from the Guttmacher Institute, which is a pro-choice organization, and they pointed out the different religions of women who had abortions. They would look at these surveys after abortion — the reason for abortion, the woman's faith, these different things — and it's interesting in certain years when surveyed, sometimes that statistic is quite high. Like 30% of the abortions can be attributed just to Protestants. So, not even looking at Catholics who also have faith, but it's very interesting when we look at this whole, broad number of abortions — 3,000 per day, which is so many — that about 30% of those are Protestant women who might be in the pew on Sunday morning. What do you think would be effective to reach those moms so that they know if they face an unplanned pregnancy, there is support and not judgment for them?"
Leta: "Well, probably if it was more open in the church. We don't even hear it today. We have a— our pastor's vocal about— I shouldn't say we don't hear it today. Our pastor has been very vocal about the wrongness of the abortion industry. In fact, his wife is the assistant director of our local center in Mio."
Cassidy: "So, the pregnancy center?"
Leta: "Yeah, it's called— it's not called the pregnancy center, but same thing. And so he [the pastor] has been very vocal about it. But we don't hear about— if there are young women who are having abortions, we don't hear about it. I don't hear about it. I don't know, today I don't know. But I think a lot of their pressure comes from boyfriends, probably more than from other people. Or from peer pressure. That kind of thing."
Cassidy: "Yeah, you're right. I think that's also what the research says that the father of the baby is one of the most impactful people in the entire situation. So if the dad is not supportive, there is a much higher likelihood that that poor, precious child is going to be killed. Dads play such an important role, even when the parents are not married or don't see each other having a future together, simply having support for the baby being born — just being able to be in that mom's corner and saying, 'Hey, I'm going to help care for this child.'"
Leta: "And you have in the high schools, young women can be pregnant who counselors take to have the abortion and the parents never ever know. So you don't know."
Cassidy: "It's so true. There's really a culture of secrecy around abortion. I think there are a lot of different reasons for that, but I do think one thing it points out is most people, even those who are secular, feel secretive about abortion. And I think it tells us something about the nature of abortion."
Leta: "Oh, I do too. They know that it's not the best choice."
Cassidy: "No [it's not the best choice], because are you really afraid — maybe a little uncomfortable — if you're in the grocery line and you had your appendix out yesterday, and you're in so much abdominal pain, you may not want to tell them because it's a private thing, but at the same time if you're making faces from the pain, you might say, 'I'm sorry, I had my appendix out yesterday,' because, like, it's not that private and they're not going to shame you for having your appendix out. But when, maybe you're in a similar situation — having a lot of abdominal pain after having an abortion, you're not going to mention it. What is the reason socially? I think what contributes to it is, I believe, that God really planted it in women's nature to be protectors of their children, and I think that even at the smallest gestations, there is a bond being formed. You don't have a bond with your appendix, so it's no big deal when your appendix is taken out. But you bond with your child. So I think even for women who are pro-choice who might say that they felt relief after their abortion — I think there is still that acknowledgement that even though they're relieved the crisis is gone, that there is some level of grief, depression, and devastation after abortion over the loss of their child, who they knew that they had a responsibility to protect."
Leta: "And most of those women remember that day. You know, when that day comes around, year after year, year after year, I believe they remember that day. Or near the birthdays when a child should have a birthday. In stories I have read, in situations I have listened to, they talk about that."
Cassidy: "While I was in college, I had a professor who is very pro-choice and she was, I believe, a psychologist. So she practiced with patients regularly. And to teach us little freshmen in college, she started to tell a story about depression, which I think the purpose of the story was to teach us about mental health, but it taught me about abortion. So, she talked about how her patient came in to see her, and sat down, and she went through some get to know you questions, like a psychologist does. And she happened to ask the question, 'Do you have any children?' A very appropriate question. The woman responded with extreme defensiveness, 'No, no, no! I don't have any children.' And the psychologist, as she's telling this story to our class, says, 'That gave me an indication that there is something deeper on that specific question.' And as she got to know her patient, she found out that, yes, she suffered from depression and it's because of an abortion. So, she had an abortion in the fall, and every single year when fall came, she had depression. So the psychologist diagnosed her with seasonal affective disorder — always starting in the fall. So, yes, there is memory, there is pain, the body kept the score — kind of like that PTSD researcher, Dr. Bessel Vander Kolk, has said, that our bodies remember. So even when we don't want to remember, when we experience a traumatic event — and your child being killed is a traumatic event even though we deny it in our culture. Her body keeps the score. That woman, most likely, especially with her feelings of defensiveness, of being asked if she has kids, may have shown she wasn't pro-life, like, 'Yeah, heart change.' But even though she was probably pro-choice, she could not get past the extreme emotional experience she was having from that abortion."
Leta: "It really stresses me when women say, 'Yeah, I've had five abortions or six abortions and I'm happy for each one. And they don't affect me at all.' And when a woman says that, that they've had no effect on her, it's almost demonic. Almost like it doesn't affect them because there is not belief of God, no belief in who creates life, and it's almost like Satan has taken that away."
Cassidy: "That's so true. I think it is so close to our nature as women to protect children. I mean not [only] our own children. I can tell you, having worked in health care, you walk into a room full of babies in the nursery and it's just in you. It's not even my child — I'm not biologically connected to them and I don't have a commitment to them except for the shift I'm working. But you protect them. We just have it in us and it's so interesting because even obstetricians when they're assessing women after childbirth, they ask questions about the level of engagement with the baby. A lot of times low engagement with the baby is a sign of not being well — of postpartum depression. So really, when we're in our healthiest state, we love, value, and protect children as women. And did you find, you know, when you were working on this unit, women who were undergoing abortions, did you think that it caused any psychological distress?"
Leta: "I really can't tell you that because they had the abortion and then they went home. And so, the one that I helped with, I would have no idea. But the young girl that had it — that I did not help with — but I know that she had it because she was on our floor, she had mental distress. But I don't know the background. They keep them in the hospital, they brought them in, had their abortions, and they were gone. So you didn't know."
Cassidy: "Right, that makes sense. What do you think the psychological impact was on the workers? You, the doctor? How do you think people were impacted by participating in these abortions?"
Leta: "I don't know that answer either because I never discussed it with anybody."
Cassidy: "So the nurses never talked about like — 'Oh, I saw this abortion, and it was really brutal'? You never discussed it?"
Leta: "No. And nobody on my floor that I worked with ever said anything to me about it. And that's why I think they were few. That they were not common. And I know there was one more that happened. That was a young gal, too, on the clinic, on the ladies' floor. Which I did not work on often. But that's where she was, too. So I just know of three that had taken place in the hospital."
Cassidy: "And each of those three took place because of supposed medical necessity?"
Leta: "Yeah."
Cassidy: "With the sign-off of two psychiatrists on each one?"
Leta: "And mental health. Mental health issues. Yeah. In fact, if I remember, the one that I helped with, she was supposedly [suicidal], but she, you know, in my observation, from what I saw, she didn't act suicidal."
Cassidy: "She wasn't trying to harm herself?"
Leta: "No."
Cassidy: "She wasn't like trying to grab things [to use to harm herself]?"
Leta: "Not in the hospital."
Cassidy: "Did she have anyone sitting with her to prevent suicide at all?"
Leta: "No."
Cassidy: "So, it wasn't an active risk where it was going to be in the next few minutes [she would harm herself]?"
Leta: "No. She was just in her room. In a private room."
Cassidy: "That's very strange justification on the part of those psychiatrists because I know that from my own health care experiences, if a patient expresses any suicidal feelings, they have to have one-on-one supervision, which I don't think they [the patient] love. And I don't blame them, but it takes someone being with them all the time. So they must not have been very sure [the woman was suicidal]."
Leta: "She did not seem suicidal."
Cassidy: "What do you think about the ethics of that, right, if a psychiatrist or two of them potentially signed off, saying, 'The reason this abortion is needed and necessary in her case is because she's suicidal,' and then your clinical judgement as you observed her, you took her vital signs, you're looking at her, you can see that's [suicidal ideation is] not currently active. What do you think the ethics of that would be for a doctor to say that a patient is suicidal so she could destroy her baby's life when that wasn't actually occurring?"
Leta: "Well, it's not very good ethics. I think they know they lie. They have to lie to write down what they write down, but it's maybe the OB pressured them, maybe the patient pressured them, maybe the parents pressured them, I don't know the issue. I don't know. But as far as ethics, it is not— there are no ethics."
Cassidy: "Right, it's not ethical."
Leta: "It's not."
Cassidy: "I find it very interesting because, right, if abortion was banned at the time, there were things to try to stop that from happening. Even in these cases that they would call medical necessity. Because clearly, you know, if a mom is in a mental health crisis, then there are interventions available once the baby's at viability, they can deliver early. So the mom and baby can be separated, and she can work on her mental healing. Because that is very important for moms to be ok mentally, and obviously mental health struggles are very real — we're not invalidating that by discussing it. But what we're pointing out is when it's not real, and it's used as a justification for killing, that's so scary. So I think looking at even these situations, the psychiatrists were literally giving a stamp of approval on destroying a human being and then same with the obstetrician, right, they have big responsibility before God for agreeing to destroy a human life."
Leta: "And that's what they do. To me, that's what they did."
Cassidy: "It's just so interesting to me, though — because I'm someone who is very interested in mental health and I've done a lot of research on it, and I also have seen how they handle suidicality in the hospital and they have a lot of questions, even like the social workers, someone who doesn't have as much education as the psychiatrist, ask questions to assess suicidality. They ask about future orientation. So like, 'Are you going to go to college?' They ask future plans to try to see— because if a person is genuinely going to harm themselves, they typically don't have any future orientation. They typically are very focused on the moment. So, the woman in your story has some future orientation, right, doesn't seem that—"
Leta: "She did not seem suicidal. She did not seem sad. She did not— this is my recollection. She did not seem— yeah, I cannot remember anything that said to me she was going to harm herself."
Cassidy: "So, an unreal diagnosis to justify killing the child?"
Leta: "And I think that's why the records— the medical records had very little in them."
Cassidy: "Like, it was intentional?"
Leta: "Yeah. That things were being hidden, so the rest of us didn't really know what was behind the story."
Cassidy: "I think that's very common with abortion culture, right, it's like hiding things, not being fully truthful. Like all of that contributes to a culture of death. So, Leta, I have this question for you, so there are many people in our culture today who have participated in abortions, so I'm specifically talking about the abortion workers. There are so many. It wouldn't be possible for any of the 3,000 abortions that happen every day— it wouldn't occur in most cases without abortion workers participating in that. If there were no abortion doctors, a lot less abortions would happen. If there were no abortion nurses, even like administrators — all those people play a role in why this keeps happening. So what would you say to someone who has taken part in an abortion and they're not convinced they should stop. What would you share with them?"
Leta: "I would probably say to them, my conviction, my belief, my biblical belief, says abortion is wrong. I would hope that someday, sometime, you would see the truth, and that you would change your life. And that you would change your profession, and do something different."
Cassidy: When we think about— obviously, the practice of medicine is very old, right. Back in the day, they did a lot of strange things like putting leaches on people thinking it was going to fix [the patient's illness]—"
Leta: "[Bloodletting]."
Cassidy: "Yes, some very strange practices. But there was always the intention of trying to do no harm, even though, at the time, they did not know that was doing harm. So looking back at these ancient physicians who have guided the practice of medicine to what it is today and ancient nurses— which that's kind of a big word for Florence Nightingale. It's not that ancient that she founded our modern practice of nursing. Do you think when we consider the practice of abortion that it is the direct, intentional killing of a living human being and a patient— so we have one patient who is the mother, and we have that second patient who is that preborn embryo or fetus who is also in our care. Do you think it makes sense when we consider the mindset of medicine — trying to do no [harm] to someone to help them to heal; of nursing, to being committed to a patient and helping to guide them in their recovery. Does it seem like it fits the philosophies of nursing or medicine to participate in abortion?"
Leta: "No, because nursing is to heal. And so killing the baby is not healing anything. It is destroying. I still think it all comes back down to satanic involvement. I'm not saying that the person is involved satanically, I'm saying Satan has his way of instilling in a person that says, 'This is ok. This is ok.' Also, I think it comes down to the fact of a person recognizing God as creator. That's what I think it comes down to. And so if you don't do that, then it might not matter [to that person]. What's the difference if you take a life by injecting something poison — so you take the life of an adult or child that is already born or you take the life of a preborn. To me it all kind of flows together with what we are seeing happening in our world. So maybe that's kind of the whole idea— maybe there's an idea that knowing that abortion's are going to be outlawed sometime. And I think that abortion is going to be— I might be wrong, but I've always looked ahead at this because of Dave Wilkerson's vision that he had that said that in his vision God told him that, 'Before I return, abortions will be outlawed.' You should look up his story. Just YouTube Dave Wilkerson's vision. And so Satan knows this is going to happen, and so he has to find other ways to make it so that there is no fertility. Because I think that's the main thing is to destroy life, so we don't look at it the same picture— we look at it as two different things, but in the end, I think it's kind of the same thing."
Cassidy: "What would you say to someone who did participate in an abortion — so a nurse or a doctor — they were involved in destroying a human life, and they are regretful, and they recognize it was wrong. What would you say to them?"
Leta: "Jesus will forgive you. When they come to realize that it was wrong, and they ask for forgiveness, they need to ask God's forgiveness because it's a sin against God. They need to ask God's forgiveness, but they also need to forgive themselves. And when you look at the stories— the men and women, well, Abby Johnson's story, when you have that, and when you realize it always hangs over your head, that I did this, I did this, I did this, but it always also hangs over my head that God has forgiven me. Whether it's abortion, whether it's murder [of another kind], whether it's whatever, God will forgive my sin if I stop doing it. And I don't do it anymore. But if I ask for forgiveness and I go back and start doing it again, I'm not so sure."
Cassidy: "God can deliver us, can't He, out of those things."
Leta: "Yeah, He's the One who delivers us. And yet I know that there are people who— I'm sure there are doctors and nurses who stop doing it, not because of God intervening in their lives, but because they realize this isn't fun and I don't want to do this. I'm done."
Cassidy: "Well, there's definitely no joy in abortion, right, like, it's true. Those who are honest with themselves — it's a devastating place to be, to be in an abortion clinic."
Leta: "It's hard for me to understand how doctors can go to the abortion clinics day after day after day. Their hearts have to be hard. And some of the stories I've read where the gals have wanted to back out and the doctors are just as hard as they can be. To me, it's a money — getting rich [is their motive]."
Cassidy: "Leta, thank you so much for joining us today and being willing to share your story of participating in an abortion in 1971. I'm really encouraged by the way God worked in your life and changed your heart from being ok with abortion potentially and participating in one, to now opposing abortion and valuing every human life in the womb. Thank you so much for joining us."
Leta: "You're very welcome."
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